AFTON LIVE (FORMERLY BIG TIME ENTERTAINMENT)
- PAY TO PLAY
(an in-depth investigation by Bon Von Wheelie)
UPDATE 3-6-09 BIG TIME ENTERTAINMENT HAS CHANGED THEIR NAME TO AFTON, Afton Live / Afton Shows / MyAfton.
EVERYTHING ELSE IS THE SAME.
SAME MYSPACE SPAM EMAILS, SAME PAY-TO-PLAY SHOWS, SAME COMPANY.
CHECK OUT THIS PAGE FIRST FOR CURRENT AFTON INFORMATION.

"CONNING BANDS AND FANS SINCE 2004"
(Our original post)

It has come to our attention that a company called Big Time Entertainment (now known as Afton Live (MyAfton.com) is running a pay-to-play scheme on unsuspecting musicians in the Northwest (and now ramping it up in more markets across the US). This company “trolls” for bands through Myspace, representing themselves as bookers for local clubs. In reality Big Time Entertainment (MyAfton.com) is just reserving crappy rock weeknights at clubs (mostly Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Sundays) and signing bands up to pre-sell tickets in order to play their shows. These bands are expected to sell a quota (35 in some cities) of overpriced tickets at $7 (while the door price is supposedly an unheard of $10!). No matter what their promo says, THIS PRACTICE IS KNOWN AS "PAY-TO-PLAY". If you are handing over $245 (or any amount) before you go on stage, no matter where the money comes from, you are paying to play. Also, the order of the show is dependent on how many tickets you can con your family and friends into buying. Ultimately, if a band really wanted to be the big headliner, they could just purchase the lot of tickets themselves. This company is acting as an expensive middleman when a band could just go through the club to get shows.
THIS IS OUR OP-ED PAGE. IT STEMS FROM 25 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE AND ON-LINE RESEARCH. BIG TIME ENTERTAINMENT - AFTON CONTACTED US. THIS IS WHAT WE DISCOVERED. (We are providing the info and our take on it. You make the call.)

Come on. If you've got some time to kill, I'll walk you through it! It'll be eye-opening. I promise.
And I hope bands will realize what a big rip-off this is. Tell your friends. Shout it from the rooftops!
PAY TO PLAY? NOT IN MY TOWN!


Ryan from Big Time Entertainment

Big Time Entertainment (Afton Live / Afton Shows) is owned by Ryan Kintz originally from Stayton, Oregon (that's the address where his domain was listed) and Dan Robertson. Ryan was the guitarist in the defunct Portland band Faded. Faded lasted four years, played some shows, put out three CDs, but mostly spent time on the internet researching how to get gigs. Their biggest show was their last (this is where BTE/Afton claims Faded is the most successful band Big Time has worked with!). According to new information from Rich Mackin of the Portland Mercury, Ryan and his former bandmate, Dan Robertson, now opperate BTE/Afton. In other words, they appear to be a couple of former failed musicians conning new/inexperienced musicians (who would know how better?). They contact bands through Myspace pretending to be the booker for clubs in your town. But in reality (and now with the help of their minions, aka "booking directors") they only rent crappy rock nights at these venues and trick bands into pre-selling quotas of expensive tickets in order to play Afton shows. All of the bookers work in Salem, Oregon. They've never been to the clubs they book. Afton is still spreading like a bad virus all over the US. They've got over 30 myspace sites. Click on the topic you'd like to review, or continue on to the other pay-to-play schemes.

NEW AFTON PAGE: SEE THIS FOR THE LATEST!

UPDATE! THE EMAIL (Your first contact from Big Time / Afton)

THE BIGTIME/AFTON SLIDING PAY SCALE (CHART) and check out the ticket template and instruction sheet they email you!

NEW! AFTON LIVE/ BIG TIME BREAKDOWN (THE Biggest Pile of Crap Yet!)

NEW! WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DON'T SELL TICKETS?

ATTENDING AN AFTON LIVE/BIG TIME SHOW

NEW ! AFTON FEEDBACK (Examining Afton's "endorsement" list)

NEW & HILARIOUS! AFTON'S ARTIST RESOURCE PAGE (Laugh riot!)

BIGTIME BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY (Join the band screwathon yourself!)

LET'S REVIEW

After you read this, don't forget to check out the NEW AFTON PAGE and AFTON LIVE ARTIST RESOURCE Page

UPDATE BOX (3-5-09): Big Time Entertainment has changed their name to Afton (aka Afton Live aka Afton Shows). New reps, new website, same old operation. Check out the new reps below right. Be sure to check google for companies like this. And when you do it, if the top suggestions are followed by the word "scam" you've got a publicity problem no matter how many glowing endorsement emails you collect!

Afton also now works their magic from Facebook and Twitter (even though this is more about people getting their tickets to sell than anything else) and don't forget to check out their new "ads" on YOUTUBE. Also there's more concentration on hip-hop and rap shows than ever before. And Here's Amy from "Cincinnati" (aka Salem Oregon), just "diggin' the vibe" of a fake band that had five friends and one crappy cover song who she thought might be a "good fit for shows"... Always remember: They send out thousands of these from myspace to everybody with a music site, no matter what they sound like:

THE BIGTIME/AFTON EMAIL: THIS IS THE EMAIL YOU WILL RECEIVE (OR ONE SIMILAR SINCE THEY CHANGE IT SLIGHTLY) WHEN YOUR BAND SIGNS UP FOR MYSPACE.
EVERY NEW BAND GETS ONE! (THE OLD BIGTIME RIPOFF SITE EVEN GOT ONE and we didn't even have any music posted!) IT'S USUALLY THE FIRST EMAIL YOU GET!
On the left will be the actual emails, forms and websites and one the right I'll explain what's happening.

This chart was first created in Arpil, 2006. Even though we've learned more about Afton Live and Big Time Entertainment, the emails Afton Live still sends today are very similar.
*BigTime Booking you in Tacoma/Seattle
———————— Original Message ————————
From: BigTime Tacoma

Hows it going?

This is Ryan from BigTime Entertainment. I am the Booking Director for BigTime for the Tacoma area. We mainly work out of Hells Kitchen. We do All Ages and 21+ shows.

We book ALL styles of music, and I do my best to put like genre acts on the same bills.

I saw your MySpace page and we may be interested in booking you for some future events. Right now I have:
April 16th, May 3, 4, 11, & 18 at Hells Kitchen.
Let me know which one works ASAP, if none work I have dates for next month so get me an E-mail for those.

Just E-mail me at my Booking Address below. Please do NOT message me back at this MySpace account since I do ALL of my booking through the below E-mail:

tacoma@bigtimeentertainment.net

Thanks! Looking forward to working with you on a regular basis!

Ryan> BigTime Booking Director
www.bigtimeentertainment.net

This is the first email they'll send through Myspace. "How's it going?" Sounds friendly enough. Ryan from Big Time Entertainment-Afton (we'll also refer to it as BTE) just happened to see your Myspace band site and thinks your band mght be right for shows at Hell's Kitchen in Tacoma. He's got about 5 dates available, all on bad rock nights (Wednesdays, Thursdays and Sundays). If these dates don't work he'll have lots of other Hell's Kitchen dates. This email was sent through

BigTime Tacoma (now deleted, Ryan has his own Myspace site that he books from) along with his employees listed below:

--------------------------------------------------------
9-10-10: They are trading sites again. Below is the updated list of all the Afton Live / Afton Shows reps who are currently booking their pay-to-play shows.   These are grouped by the person, what city they book and which clubs in that city.  You can clearly see that none of these people could personally be taking care of these shows.  They do it all from their computers at home.  They all live in Oregon, they all went to the University of Oregon. Check the list to see who your rep is.  AGAIN - THEY LIVE IN SALEM, OREGON...NOT IN THE CITY THAT'S LISTED ON THEIR MYSPACE SITES! AFTER THE NEW MYSPACE "IMPROVEMENT" LINKS DON'T WORK. BE PATIENT. I'M WORKING ON IT! THANKS.
Their main myspace site is now this one.
They are also on facebook (and check some of those comments!)


RYAN KITNZ BOOKS AFTON PAY-TO-PLAY SHOWS IN:
Pittsburgh, PA (Shadow Lounge)
Tampa, FL (Orpheum)
Milwaukee, WI (The Miramar Theater, The Rave)
Austin, TX


AMY BOOKS AFTON LIVE PAY-TO-PLAY SHOWS IN...
Richmond, VA (Alley Katz)
Indianapolis, IN
Sacramento, CA (Club Retro)
Cinncinati, OH
(Blue Note)
Hartford, CT (The Space, Webster)
Houston, TX (Warehouse Live, The Jet Lounge)
Nashville, TN (Rocketown, The Muse)

Phoenix, AZ - The Sets, Clubhouse. San Jose - Voodoo)
Seattle, WA (Studio Seven, El Corazon, Colombia City)
Twin Cities, MN (Dinkeytowner Cafe, Varsity Theater)
Cleveland, OH (Wilberts, The HiFi Club)



DAN BOOKS AFTON LIVE PAY-TO-PLAY SHOWS IN...
Manchester, NH (Milly's)
Des Moines, IA (Shooter's Hidaway, House of Bricks)
St. Louis, MO (Creepy Crawl, Ciceros)
Modesto, CA
Worcester, MA (Tammany Hall)
San Antonio, TX (The Venue)


MIKE IS BOOKING AFTON LIVE PAY-TO-PLAY IN...
Syracuse, NY

Maimi, FL (Wallflower)
Denver, CO (Oriental Theater, Hodis, Hi-Dive, Cervantes)
Jacksonville, FL
Omaha, NE (Sokol Underground)
Little Rock, AR (Juanita's)
Tulsa, OK (The Pink Eye, Side Stage)

Rochester, NY (Dub Land)
San Jose, CA

Afton New Venues

SAM USED TO BOOK SEATTLE AND TWIN CITIES. NOW HE JUST HAS THIS OLD SITE...
General - Booking Director

-------------------------------------------------
But he doesn't want you to reply to that. Use his bigtimeentertainment email instead. What he doesn't say is that he's also got many more sites with "reps" all over the US.

The one thing you noticed about these sites is that the band Big Time Entertainment seems absolutely most obsessed is called Faded (This is all that's left of them - no website, no myspace, just their CD for sale). Man, Faded must be some kind of hot new Northwest "band on the rise" if Big Time Entertainment is pushing them!

The guitar player in Faded is named Ryan. (SORRY, RYAN COULDN'T STAND THE HEAT AND DELETED THE FADED MYSPACE.) Coincidence? You tell me.

Wow, we're in luck! He and Big Time Entertainment is looking forward to working with us on a regular basis!

 

Okay, I guess we'd like to play Hell's Kitchen and since Ryan is the booker, let's give it a go! We follow his directions and email him directly and not through Myspace.

BINGO! HERE COMES THE FORM/QUESTIONARE WE HAVE TO FILL OUT...It's really big so let's break it down...Get out your number two pencil...

THE BIG TIME ENTERTAINMENT FORM
1. So that we don’t get these forms mixed up:
Please type your band name below (remember to type in all CAPS):

1b. We need ONE PHONE number from someone in your band, preferably a cell phone number that your band will have with you when you go to play shows:
2. How would you describe specifically what type of music you play AND
what bands you sound similar to?

Questions 1 and 2 is just the basic stuff. They'll need that emergency cell phone number and an idea of what type of music you play. I guess they didn't listen to your Myspace tunes.

3. (We need each band to bring in at LEAST 35 people to see them play. This is vital to ensure that ALL of the bands on the bill can count the night a success. If a band works hard to bring in 50 people and another band brings 3 people and has 6 on their guest list it’s NOT fair to the band that worked hard and brought 50 people to the show.

To be most FAIR in determining band order, bands that bring the most people to our shows get to choose exactly the time slot they would like to play. Bands that bring out a lot of people make it possible for us to work with them on a consistent basis. Also, your payment will be primarily proportional to your draw for the night.

Question 3 is where we start really learning how Big Time Entertainment works. They'll need you to ensure that 35 people see you. They give you this crap about it not being fair if one band brings 50 people and one brings 3 (ie "you pathetic losers"!). UPDATE: They've lowered the bar to about 25 tickets!

GIRL TROUBLE REALITY CHECK: This is why the time honored system of starting all new bands in the opening slot and working them up through a series of shows really works. Seeing who draws and who doesn't is easy. This is the natural process that all bands go through. This is how a band gains a following. No band starts at the top but with time and hard work they can get there.

But in the BTE World, it's the band that sells the tickets. Bands are turned into mini sales teams. Nevermind if your band is great, nevermind if you've written the best songs ever or if people that came to see the headliners want to see you next time. THE NAME OF THIS GAME IS HUSTLING THOSE TICKETS!

FORGET ART - SELL! SELL! SELL!

This is where it turns into the traditional PAY TO PLAY. To ensure that the bands are pitted against one another, the band that sells the most tickets determines their position on the bill. There's no pre-set line-up of bands per show. So if a band desperately wants that top spot all they have to do is buy up the tickets themselves. If you've got the money you can be an instant headliner!

and don’t worry Start worrying

we are one of the BEST paying all ages concert producers in the northwest. So it is very much in YOUR best interest to work hard in bringing people to the show.)

Taking this into account: Can you guarantee us AT LEAST 35 people to
come see you play?

What's with this guarantee crap!? Damn, sometimes Girl Trouble couldn't guarantee 35 people on a Wednesday. Sometimes you can get people in and other times, no matter how hard you try, people don't want to party on a Wednesday. And if BTE/Afton is so generous why don't they list the percentage you get out of all your salesmanship right up front instead of just illuding to it?

4. Tickets are $7 in advance and the door admission is $10
for shows at Hells Kitchen.

ON WEDNESDAYS AND SUNDAYS! ARE YOU SHITTING ME!!!? $10 for a Wednesday show at Hell's Kitchen?!! I had a hell of a time selling $3 Girl Scout cookies and I was a cute Brownie! Getting people to shell out the exorbitant $7 pre-show price for a weeknight show is going to be one tough act. This price is practically criminal considering you can go to shows on weekends in Seattle for less than $7 (not even considering the $10 door price). I'll make a guarantee. I guarantee AT LEAST 35 PEOPLE will run everytime they see you coming with those rip-off tickets!
This is NOT “pay to play;” you would not have to pre-purchase the tickets. We would just give them to you to sell.
(We have found bands that don’t pre-sell tickets have a MUCH lower
attendance than bands that do, mainly because without pre-sold tickets
most people that promise to come to the show end up never showing up.)

If they've got to say it's not pay-to-play...I rest my case. OF COURSE IT IS! They expect you to hand them $245 before you play. That would be paying...to play. Whether you bought tickets yourselves or can force your unfortunate family and friends to cough up with the cash...

YOUR BAND IS PAYING TO PLAY!!!!

Taking all of this into account, is your band willing to pre-sell tickets to your friends and fans? Man, that's low !!

 

www.bigtimepresents.com

UPDATE: In order to do damage anonymously Ryan Kintz has changed his website to bigtimepresents.com and registered it with Domains By Proxy (so no one can find out who's behind this company). Nice try.

 

This is where we get to feast our eyes on the massive and all-powerful Big Time Entertainment website. Damn, it looks like American Idol or something. How professional can you get? They must be a huge company. They must be booking every major club and band in the entire US! I tremble at the sight...

Until you start actually looking at all the states they really represent. Pull down the windowshade of links and scroll all 50 states. Now here's the trick. On every state you touch it reads "No shows currently scheduled. Check back soon for updates." In other words the only states the mighty BTE has any foothold in is Washington, Oregon and just recently California (some Christian club). Three states out of 50, not quite as big as they make themselves out to be.
UNFORTUNATELY THAT HAS CHANGED WITH A HANDFULL OF AFTON EMPLOYEES WORKING FULL TIME AT THEIR COMPUTERS IN SALEM, OREGON TO SPAM EMAIL EVERY CITY.

5. Before moving on with the form completion, read our PROMOTIONS
section of our web site at:

www.bigtimepresents.com/WA.htm
Click on PROMOTIONS

If you don't have time to read all this I'll give you a couple of the highlights.
BigTime Entertainment DOES NOT recommend the use of traditional paper fliers--sometimes called handbills--for promoting shows, except in the case of a very well established act (average draw of 500+ per event). The fact is, people can't hear your music on a piece of paper. No matter what words or imagery it may include, a piece of paper simply cannot connect people to your music. The same is true of print ads in newspapers and show listings on websites. In almost all cases, the rule is "NO MUSIC = NO CONNECTION"

When it comes to promoting your shows, CONNECTION is everything! Shift your efforts away from print advertisements and show listings. Trade in your traditional fliers for audio fliers that can create a connection with people you meet for the first time. And most importantly, take advantage of the connection you already have with the people that already know YOU!
Following these guidelines will ensure the best possible results for
every show you play, whether for BigTime or at other events. To
indicate you have read our PROMOTIONS section please type “YES” below

THIS WHOLE SECTION IS ABSOLUTE CRAP! I'M GOING TO REPEAT THAT...

ABSOLUTE CRAP!!!

They do not recommend making handbills and fliers! They say only established acts (who draw 500 +) can make it work. THIS IS BULLSHIT. Posters do work. Posters support artists. Print artists and musicians together create healthy music scenes. This is vital to what you are doing.

Ever looked at the "grunge" movement? What would that be without posters and fliers? The posters and bands were one and the same. You couldn't have one without the other. It created a big arts scene.

Big Time Entertainment wants you to forget all that. They want you to distribute some kind of CD samplers. Yeah, I'm sure those will look great in a book about your current music scene!

THEY ARE WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!
DON'T LISTEN TO THESE IDIOTS!

To learn more about sample CDs, as well as a variety of other effective strategies, visit Tim Sweeney's website:

www.tsamusic.com
BUT HERE'S the most scary aspect of all! Could this be the evil genius behind Big Time Entertainment? It's Tim Sweeney. You are directed to the corporate website of Tim Sweeney. He'll be glad to help you with those CD samplers you'll need to make to replace the handbill and print ads that they've deemed are no longer necessary...for a price of course. The "tsamusic" website is rather corporate and generic looking. Big Brotherish. Not very rock.

TIM SWEENEY

Big Time Entertainment's Sensei

But let's look at the REAL Tim Sweeney site. There he is. He's some kind of self-help "arts" guy. Does this really look like the kind of guy you need rock & roll help from? Does he know anything about being in a band in Tacoma? Is he a former band member himself...or your nerdy neighbor? You make the call.
UPDATE: We learned the Tim Sweeney is only the BTE internet guru. Ryan and Dan just found him through researching the internet on how to get gigs. They turned to their computer instead of actually going to shows and hanging out with other bands to make connections. Still...pretty scary stuff.

*How long of a drive is it for your band to get to Hell’s Kitchen in
TACOMA when...
Traffic is normal:
Rush hour Traffic:
Okay, so the rest of the questionare/form includes some kind of driving math problem and everthing after that is trying to trick you into giving lists of clubs and other bands they can work this scheme on.
13. Are your band members in High School, College, or Working?
(If in school, which one(s)?
Are they going to send their goons to school to lean on you if you aren't selling those tickets?

14. Does your band TALK ABOUT ON STAGE and/or SING ABOUT ON STAGE any of the following? If so explain to what extent:


Politics, religion, Race or Gender Discrimination, or Language not
appropriate for all ages crowds?

Okay, this is where it really takes a turn for the WEIRD. Have the guys booking this actually been to Hell's Kitchen? Look at the friendly

Hell's Kitchen staff photo.

Does it really look like these guys give a rat's ass whether you swear or if you talk about politics or religion!? I'd be willing to bet Ryan or Dan have never set foot in Hell's Kitchen. Are any of the other Hell's Kitchen bands following these rules?

Terrific, now they are asking you to answer essay questions too! Are we required to do homework to get this gig?

16. IF YOUR BAND could for sure Pre-Sell 35+ Tickets to a show at
Studio 7 or EL CORAZON in Seattle and you’d like to play those venues, make
sure to E-mail me at: seattle@bigtimeentertainment.net So that I can get you
our Seattle booking form.
Oh, isn't this great news! Big Time Entertainment is also ripping bands off in Seattle at Studio 7 and El Corazon. Happy day!

THE BIG TIME ENTERTAINMENT SLIDING PAY SCALE
$ PER TICKET
TICKETS SOLD
TOTAL CASH
BIGTIME GETS
YOU GET
$1
25
$175
$150
$25
$1
35
$245
$210
$35
$1.50
36
$252
$198
$54
$1.50
49
$343
$269.50
$73.50
$2
50
$350
$250
$100
$2
72
$504
$360
$144
$3.50
73
$511
$255.50
$255.50
$3.50
85
$595
$297.50
$297.50
$4
86
$602
$258
$344
$4
90
$630
$270
$360

I have taken the liberty of making the BigTime Entertainment Sliding Pay Scale chart for pre-selling their $7 tickets. This is the official break-down in the email that you have to worm out of them. Their email stated: "25-35 is $1 a ticket, 36-49 is $1.50 a ticket, 50+ is $2 a ticket, 73+ is $3.50 a ticket, and 86+ is $4 a ticket." So if the chart is correct, there's no money for your band if you sell $164 worth of tickets. In fact, you don't even start to split the cash 50/50 until you pre-sell 73 tickets! And here's a little hint (if there wasn't a misprint on the email breakdown we got): If you are at the point where it's the difference between selling 72 and 73 tickets, buy the damn 73rd ticket yourself and pocket the extra cash!
BY THE WAY, YOU ALSO HAVE TO PRINT YOUR OWN TICKETS! THEY WON'T EVEN DO THAT FOR YOU! THEY SEND YOU AN EMAIL TEMPLATE AND YOU HAVE TO PRINT THEM OUT AT KINKO'S! AFTON LIVE / AFTON SHOWS FOLLOWS THE SAME TEMPLATE. WHAT A CHEAP BUNCH OF...


Here's the ticket template they sent to our friends in the Rochester, New York band Anatomical Gift. There are two more pages below that give what they tell you when you sign up for a show. Thanks again to the boys in Anatomical Gift! And again...where is this evidence (See "Advantages to Your Band" at left) that "fans who buy tickets are SEVEN times more likely to come to the show"! I want to have a look at that scientific study! And check on the right bottom under IMPORTANT: So they DO FROWN on not selling the required number of tickets! Thanks for the clarification!



THE AFTON SHOWS / BIG TIME BREAKDOWN: THE BIGGEST FABRICATION FROM BIG TIME ENTERTAINMENT YET!

About six months ago and after several unflattering articles, particularly that impressive piece called Big Time Controversy written by Rich Mackin in the Portland Mercury, BTE started re-tooling their website (for their second round of attacks). Somebody over there must have noticed our Big Time payment chart showing the little amount of money your band makes against BTE's percentage because they came up with this brilliant and completely inaccurate, fabricated DOLLAR BREAKDOWN . Even though the information is mostly a pile of fabricated crap, I’ll give them big kudos for the beautiful interactive graphic. Here's an actual freeze of it that I got from our friend Zadoc of the Syracuse NY band Zadoc...and the Nightmares.

Let’s take a look at it shall we? I’m sure you are familiar with the stories of how shady businessmen will pump up phony business expenses to save on paying taxes. Big Time’s handy dollar bill is alot like that. HERE'S THE FACT: Big Time pays one fee to rent the club for the night. This rental fee covers everything to run that night's show. BUT BTE/Afton is also counting all the expenses of the club as theirs! This is a double billing trick to con people into thinking Big Time Entertainment has all these expenses. They don’t. The Big Time Dollar Bill lists many expenses that are included in club rental or just fabricated out of thin air. That must be where "*Catgories can vary widely from show to show" comes into play. That's Big Time's equivalent of "Results Not Typical" on all those diet commercials.


BTE's DOLLAR PERCENTAGE (FROM THE BTE WEBSITE)
PLAYING FAST AND LOOSE WITH THE FACTS...
SOUND AND LIGHTS (6.9 cents): In addition to the cost of acquiring (either purchasing or renting) sound and lighting equipment, venues must also staff these positions with qualified and experienced tecnicians. SOUND AND LIGHTS: Big Time does not own their own sound and lighting or have a tech crew. All this comes with the rent of the club, including the pro to run it. The club is not going to let some knucklehead from Big Time fart around with their expensive gear. BIGTIME FABRICATION
BOOKING STAFF (3.4 cents): An average of 4.5 man-hours per event are spent coordinating bands and venues, sending tickets to bands, arrangeing even staff schedules and ensuring everyone’s questions get answered, so that details don’t end up neglected. BOOKING STAFF: This is for the Big Time staff to spam email everyone that's got a new music account on myspace, contact the club and send out the email ticket templates so you can print out your own tickets at KINKO's.
VENUE’S MONTHLY LEASING EXPENSE (25.6 cents): It almost all cases, venues lease the space they are occupy - as opposed to owning it. Because of this, they have a substantial lease payment due each month to their Landlord (or owned of the building). This monthly lease expense for the venue is a fixed cost and remains the same, regardless of how many shows are held at the venue in a given month. Every night that a venue goes un-booked puts a greater fiancial burden on the venues remaining shows in that month. VENUE'S MONTHLY LEASING EXPENSE: Big Time rents the night. Most venues have a set charge ($300-$500) depending on where the club is located. This charge includes the sound-system and lights, a professional to run it, and usually a couple of door people/bouncers for the club. No one at Big Time is worried about lease agreements. This is the club's baby. If Big Time is claiming responsibility, I think a few club owners would be happy to talk to them. This might be what BTE figures for just the club rent for the night, but don't let them fool you, there are no venue expenses, they just rent the club.
BIG TIME’S INCOME (8.1 cnets): Income from which Big Time pays for liability insurance, worker’s compensation coverage, office/administrative staff, and improvments to booking systems as well as web deliverable resources for bands. BIG TIME'S INCOME: I seriously doubt that Big Time is paying liability insurance and worker's comp to the team of people who work from home and spam you on myspace or go to the show and collect band money.
SECURITY (10 cents): Security staff must be capable and experienced; in certain markets, licensing is required for security staff. The size of the Security staff is generally proportional to the size of the venue and aniticipated event attendance. SECURITY: This is a lie. There is no Big Time Security staff. Notice how they describe the security staff but they never actually claim they have one!? That's because they don't. Security comes with club rent. Again, these clubs aren't going to trust security to inexperienced Big Time Boneheads. BIGTIME FABRICATION.
VENUE’S INCOME (9.3 cents): Income from which the Venue pays to upgrade/add sound & light equipment, seating, decorations, video games, pool tables, etc. VENUE'S INCOME: Video games?! Pool Tables!? Decorations!? Damn, how stupid do you think these bands are? BTE upgrades NOTHING at the clubs they rent! BIGTIME FABRICATION.
MAINTENANCE AND REPAIRS (1.0 cents): Unlike a residential lease (house, apartment, condo), where the landlord pays for maintenance and repairs - tenants that lease commercial space must pay 100% of all such costs during the period in which they occupy the space. MAINTENANCE AND REPAIRS: Are these guys really claiming that there is some kind of big commercial building BTE operates from (or are they still trying to pretend they have a "venue")? Give me a break! Check out the business opportunity page again. You opperate out of your own house/apartment/dorm room on your own computer. BIGTIME FABRICATION.
YOUR BAND’S PAYMENT (23.4 cents): Your band is guaranteed to be paid an amount proportional to your draw for the night so that you can count on being rewarded for your efforts. YOUR BAND'S PAYMENT: Check the chart above. If you bring less than 25 people YOU GET NOTHING, but you hand them $164. And that friends, is paying to play. (Now the new astericks on the new BTE page suggest that they've changed it so you get a dollar even if you sell one ticket. I'm still skeptical. But it's still a 1 - 6 split. You do the work, they get the profit.) You don't even break even with them unless you can sell over 86 tickets (and if you've got that kind of draw, why are you working with Big Time?)
ALWAYS REMEMBER...NO MATTER HOW THE MONEY IS SPLIT, BIGTIME COMES OUT ON TOP.
UTILITIES (2.1 cents): Just like in a home or office setting, venues must pay for water, sewer, heat and electrical costs each month. These costs are proportional to the size of their space. UTILITIES: Once more, Big Time is pretending they actually have a club instead of renting the night. "Oh Big Time, you're trying so hard to come up with expenses, it's almost cute!" BIGTIME FABRICATION
VENUE MANAGER (5.7 cents): The Venue Manager usually spends 8+ hours per show coordinating sound, lights, and security on the day of the event. He or she opens up the venue before the show, locks down after everyone (including other staff members) have left, and oversees on-site logistics associated with each event. VENUE MANAGER: Big Time is claiming that they actually have someone who opens the doors and closes up the venue at night! I'm sure the clubs will be interested to know this. Actually, the BTE manager pretty much leaves the minute the ticket money is collected and split up. Lots of bands have complained that they didn't even stay for the whole show! BIGTIME FABRICATION
DOOR PERSON (4.5 cents): The Door Person spends roughly 6 hours at the average show. He or she must be paid at least the minumum wage for his or her particular state. DOOR PERSON: Yes, the door person. This is the "bag man" that everybody talks about. He's the guy that's going to go after you when you don't come up with the money.
BIG TIME TALLY:

LET'S RE-CALCULATE : They say 41.6 cents for Big Time's club rent, negligible staff and "Big Time's Income". I'm saying 35 cents is TOTAL fabrication. A more realistic rent is 25 cents on the dollar, 23.4 cents goes to your band...maybe... if you sell enough tickets, and of course the big payoff to Big Time for doing absolutely nothing. Are you really satisfied doing all the work but getting so little profit?

SO WITH OUR FIGURES THE NEW BTE DOLLAR BREAKDOWN SHOULD LOOK MORE LIKE THIS. Why does BigTime take the biggest cut?:

THE CLUB RENT:

25

BIG TIME ENTERTAINMENT:

51.6

THE BAND.



23.4


NOW HERE IS THE STORY OF OUR SMALL TRIUMPH OVER BIG TIME THE SECOND TIME WE WORKED WITH THEM (hands-on experience from the Tacoma band LURID). John from Lurid writes...

This was just an ordinary show that we booked with them at Hells Kitchen. We had already been ripped off once before by this company and once by Gorilla so lets just say we never intended on giving any money to the 'big time rep'. By this time we had already built a solid relationship with Hells Kitchen and a couple of us were talking with the bar tenders and door man before the night started and we mentioned Big Time and how they raped bands and what not, when the employees from the bar stated that they did not like that company in their venue in the first place, but they had just rented it out for this event and didnt care if they got paid or not. (we mentioned to them we were thinking about stiffing them) When Big Time first contacts you they tell you how you need to sell all your tickets otherwise the venue will not be happy with you and may not ask you back ever again, blah blah blah. Not true, it is Big Time that will not be happy becuase they didnt rip you off as good as they wanted to.

Anyways, we show up to that show and as soon as we do this little guy at the door is already asking for the money. We tell him that one of our other band mates has it and won't be here until just before the show. Our whole band was there together having a good time and he didnt even know. They only care about the money and that's it. Anyways, every fifteen minutes he is asking us for the money and we still dont have it, it's on the way. We ended up playing the show, not paying 'Big Time' any of the money we "owed" them and gave the money back to most of the people that came to the show. A lot of them told us to keep it for ourselves which was cool. Big Time called my phone for three weeks after that show trying to get the money. For the first week I told them they were not getting dime one from us and then quit answering my phone for the last two weeks until they finally stopped. We havent heard from them since. Except we have been getting random messages from people putting on battle of the bands in my area and would we want to play. We stay away from those kinds of shows and recommend that every other band does too. When you do it all yourself it makes it that much sweeter anyways!!! Thanks Bon and down with pay to play!
John from the local Tacoma band LURID www.myspace.com/luridrocks

HERE'S AN EMAIL THAT GOT BUMPED FROM MY BIGTIME RIPOFF SITE. IT'S TOO GOOD NOT TO RE-POST!...

I’m not sure if you’ve ever played a Big Time show, or if you were lucky enough to avoid all of their bullshit. I noticed you don’t mention anything about the actual shows themselves.

When we (The Mods) were still playing shows, we booked three dates with BigTime. We show up and some weird creepy guy stops you at the door and asks you for all of the ticket money. There’s no hello, there’s no, “Hey guys! What’s up!?” The first words they say, “Where’s the money?” If that’s not bad enough, immediatley after they count all of your cash... they leave. Not once did I see a Big Time representative stay after the second band takes the stage.

One thing I found rather odd when I read the original e-mail again was their policy of sales determine the line up. I remember the second show we played under BigTime, we had sold ten to fifteen more tickets than this horrible “experimental” band, and somehow, they played last. There’s something more going on other than money and it’s called ass kissing. The BT Representive doesn’t give a shit about the order. He just grabs the money and leaves, and in truth, no one really sticks around to make sure the order is set in stone.

At our last BT show, we sold 30 tickets, and no one came. It was an El Corazon date, and we were a Tacoma based band. There were 7 people that we did not recognize listening to us. No one we had sold tickets to made it out that night. Two days later, I get an e-mail from the famous Ryan, and it was very uncomfortable. It basically said this:

”Hey guys!

Great job the other night. The sound guy at El Corazon said you guys were awesome and fun working with. We want to book you for two more dates if you’re up for it!”

My response was simple, because at this point, driving to Seattle for seven people to stand like statues while you play wasn’t really worth it. I said we wanted to take it easy on shows for a while because mid-terms were coming up and if we were to play shows on school nights, we would rather do it in more of a local area. I thought that he would read my message and say, “Oh...alright, let me find someone else.” He sent me another e-mail.

”Oh, c’mon guys! It’d be cool. All you would have to sell is 30 tickets!”

The rest of the message was basically him pushing us to book these shows and sell these tickets. So I basically told him to fuck off.

To this day, I still get e-mails from Big Time entertainment, and I wrote them 8-10 months ago, telling them we’ve broken up. They must not have gotten the e-mail.

By the way, you’re welcome to use this message as a testimonial whenever you’d like.

Love and Support,
Will Bury



ATTENDING A BIG TIME / AFTON LIVE SHOW

I've been doing a lot of complaining about BTE and what a ripoff it is. I've talked to everybody who will share (and amazingly there are a lot of musicians who have no problem giving me all the sordid details). After gathering so much information I decided to actually attend one of these shows myself. So this one time, AND ONE TIME ONLY, I paid my $10 to witness a Big Time Show. On a Wednesday, I went to Hell's Kitchen.

First off, you aren't going to meet Ryan. You aren't even going to meet Mike (BigTime Tacoma booker). On this day you weren't even going to meet the "bag man" that officially collects the money. This night he was sick so his poor girlfriend (a very nice and pleasant girl who obviously was just trying to help out) took the money at the door. BTE makes sure that the people you actually encounter the day of the show are so far down on the BigTime totem pole, it's hardly worth getting mad over. Very clever.

Over the course of my life I've seen a hell of a lot of shows but this is the first time I've ever been required to declare which band I was there to see. My nephew even told the door girl that he was there to see all the bands. She wasn't having it. "Well, you need to pick one."

There were five bands. Two young punk bands, a mid-20s Candlebox sounding band (that had really good equipment and had obviously been playing a long time), a father and his three kids (a entertaining quirky act, a cross between the Shaggs and James Rebel O'Leary) and an emo teen band.

The "audience" or ticket purchasers are only interested in seeing "their" band. Not one person stayed for the whole show. The band on stage pretty much plays to the people they've sold the tickets to. When they are finished, most of their crowd files out the door. Then the next band gets on and the next audience files in to see their band. THERE IS NO SHOW. There are five bands. There are five audiences. There's no connection.

On this night it was obvious that the 20-somethings sold the most tickets, and it couldn't have been more than 30. They wisely chose the middle spot. I watched the door girl hand them some money (probably about 25-30 bucks). Why a band like this, one that could easily get a bar gig, needs to work for BigTime is beyond me. Here's a little hint fellas - Take the energy you wasted selling those tickets, make some phone calls and book yourselves a real show! Your audience will be glad you did.

The other bands all had some people but obviously not close to the BTE 35 quota. I can't imagine that there were more than 70 people the entire time (and that was probably counting band members). By the time the last emo band got on stage I think there might have been more members of the band than in the audience. They must have been the worst salesmen. Almost everyone had gone. All the other bands had pretty much packed up and left too. These kids were putting on a show, but finally even I had to sneak out.

So what was my impression of attending a Big Time Entertainment show? One word -

DEPRESSING !

It was so depressing! The bands didn't fit together at all. You could have dropped a bunch of musicians from a plane and the five that landed on the circle target on the ground would be the one's playing that night. It was the most unnatural mish-mash of music, more like a talent show than anything else. But even a talent show's audience stays for the whole event! Nobody cared about anybody else. When they were done, they left. No community of musicians will EVER form from shows like that. BTE doesn't care anything about putting on a show. They don't care about a community of musicians. They aren't listening to the bands. They are filling five spots - THAT'S IT.

So my final thought: Have you seen those old ads in 60s and 70s magazines? The ones that read "Set Your Poems To Music"? Poor slobs ("poet-songwriters") would pay a bunch of money for their shot at "breaking into showbiz" by having studio hacks write some tune to their awful poems. For more big bucks they would actually record your song. If you've ever listened to any of this stuff, it's a laugh riot. BIGTIME ENTERTAINMENT IS THE "SET YOUR POEM TO MUSIC" OF THE 21st CENTURY.

-Bon


AFTON LIVE / AFTON SHOWS / BIG TIME FEEDBACK:
It appears that there are thousands of bands just wetting themselves to sing the praises of Afton Live / BTE. Look at them all! However, I encourage you to actually read through them. Upon careful examination, it's clear that most of these "glowing endorsements" are merely clipped out pieces of emails, many just hammering out show details. In fact, quite a few of them don't really give any kind of praise for Big Time. The same topic keeps coming up so these are a few random samples that are arranged in groups. I tried to take out the actual band names here and replaced them with XXXXX. AND REMEMBER: FOR REAL FEEDBACK, ALWAYS GOOGLE AND CHECK MESSAGE BOARDS NOT AFFILIATED WITH THE PAY-TO-PLAY COMPANY.

CANT DO IT: They "love" Big Time alright, but right now they've either got more important fish to fry or they are breaking up...
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We had a great time playing at Studio 7, I really liked the sound system much better, along with the high ceilings. I’m still waiting to hear from the rest of my band regarding the upcoming dates. Thanks.”

Hey Joe, This is Dani from XXXXXXXXX...The other day we got a message about performing at Hell’s Kitchen, and we’re stoked about the opportunity to play, but none of the January dates are really convenient for us; Is there any chance we’d be able to get a list of your February dates? Please write me back at this Email address, otherwise we might never actually receive your response. We look forward to booking a date at some point! Thanks in advance.”

Hey, I am not sure what date will work best yet. i will talk to the rest of the band. also, could you send me a new band form. I am in second band and would like to get signed up for shows through you. Thanks Alot.”

Hello, I didn’t get your message until tonight. I am currently too early in the stages of this project to preform the live act due to the lack of equipment and members...It seems like you guys run a good program and I apreciate the interest. I hope to hear from you sometime further down the road if you are still interested. Thanks,”

Hey Bigtime, I appreciate the opportunity to perform. I had a good time last nite. Thursday nites are bad for me, because my sponsors have a weekly thurs nite gig in n Phoenix. I would like to perform again!”

“Thanks for letting us know about these shows but we are playing at Satyricon on the 11th. So we won’t be able to play. But looking forward to hear about more shows from you guys!”

“Hey man Moneta cant make it to the show at Hell’s Kitchen but we are still gonna be there. We are exited to play more shows so just let me know as soon as you can when we can play again!”

“We are unavailable on the 31st, and just signed a contract for a show on the 27th yesterday. Really sorry about that, but we are really looking forward to working with you guys as well. Your shows seem to be really well run, and that is how we like to do things so it should be a great fit.”

Alright I appreciate the responses and coordination from all of you at BigTime. We are goin to finish up an album and don’t know if we can stretch it to the show date. We decided to skip this particular date and join up for the next one that you are hosting to hit it hard. Let us know about the next one. Thanks!

“Thanks for all your help and the opportunity as well! We had a great time. XXXXXX will not be doing any more shows for a little while so that we can concentrate on promoting our new CD, recording our next EP, and passing our classes. Keep in touch though, because we’ll be back with an even stronger following.”

Hey Dan-This is Dark C. of THEE XXXXX-Thanks again for the show on the 4th at The Sets-I heard we drew 24 people. Cool. The Easter show sounds good except alot of my guys cant swing it. What oher dates do you have available? Anything sooner? Thanks-Dark

Hey Bigtime, I am just writing to let you know, that XXXXX is no longer together. Thanks for hooking us up with some killer shows, and I will contact you with my new band when we have everything solid. Thank you again,”

Hey Joe, It’s Andrew from XXXXXX. Sorry I haven’t gotten a hold of you, but we’re not going to be able to do shows anymore. Stuff has been coming up and the band decided it was best to break up. Thanks for giving us the opportunity to play this past year. It was definetly a great experience. Good luck with all the other bands that you book.”

EXCITED NEWBIES: These bands are excited to play but it doesn't look like they've done any gigs yet, or if they have they are apologizing about letting BTE down on the ticket count. These are good examples of enthusiasm but not much else...
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“Im excited for tonights show and I’m also interested in getting booked for as many other shows as you can get me in on! Thanks!”

Hi, ya i have a new band so please keep me informed about show opennings, hopefully we’ll be really early next month. Thanks.”

Thanks so much for the advice! I’m definately going to check out some Tim Sweeney books and see what I can learn. It’s too bad bigtime doesn’t have a touring system in place quite yet, but its definately something to look forward to, because you guys are great, we love playing shows for you guys. Anyway, I’ve been doing a lot of online reasearch and looking for venues and contacting is my next step. Thanks for all the tips Ryan, I really appreciate it!! Merry Christmas

Dan, Got the email, and all the band members have seen it. Looking forward to the show!”

“Hello, Thank you for your response to my page and I would definitely love to do business with you very soon. I would also very much appreciate the exposure. The best email to contact me through is my work email at XXXXX@verizonwireless.com. I would like to ask some questions before booking a date, so if you could contact me there then maybe we can set up a phone date. I look forward to hearing from you soon. Thanks.”

We got all the information we needed, thanks! we all cant wait to play on the 19th.”

We would totally interested in the November 25th show. We can draw way more than any other time, we just need confirmation ASAP. Please let us know and we will get to wok promoting. Thanks for booking us for the acoustic show. Tim had a great time, and we enjoyed getting to see him shine on his own. Your company is very professional and we like doing business with you. Please let us know about November 25th.

Thanks for the oppurtunity to play a show. Next time we can for SURE bring many more people. We all loved the satyricon and we would like to play there again in the future. We would like to play again in late February or early March if that would be possible. thanks again.

It was fun! I am happy about the turnout, too. But I think I want to wait until I can get a band together, remember I drew this only myself. If I had help we could’ve done even better. Nevertheless, thanks.”

My name is Tim, most call me Big T. I am now representing the group XXXX that just played your show Sunday at the Satyricon. I am just looking to get these guys set up with some shows through a good entertainment company and after researching all the local companies I think Big Time is the best for us right now.”

Hye Dan,It’s The XXXXX ’s. Last night was such a good show and everyone there knew it too. We rocked pretty hard and everyone loved it as well as us. We really enjoyed doing a friday night show at the brickhouse. We would love to play alot more. So if you could send us some upcoming friday night, saturday night dates, we would really appreciate it.

Hey Thanks again for having us @ The Brickhouse. Please keep us in mind for furture shows

Hey Ryan, that was a fun show! Anyways, if we book a show again we’ll make sure to bring out the right number of people, because i know that we CAN. it just takes a bit of effort, but its worth it. Oh, and thanks again for the links to band resources and promotions tips, I found some good information!”

hey joe, the show went really well. we would love to book something with you soon. i’ll get back to you about the november 26th show asap. the only problem is that we are playing hell’s kitchen on december 23rd. i don’t know if we wanna play the same venue 3 times in a month. i will see what everyone else wants to do and get back to you in a day or so. sound good?”

We have reviewed your promotion strategies before and found some of them useful. Thank you for helping your bands be as successful as they choose tobe. ALMOST TIME TO ROCK THE HOUSE DOWN!!!”

PROBLEMS: Why Big Time would even list anything that smacked of a show that didn't work perfectly is beyond me. Lots of references to shows that didn't go so well...
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We had the most people in the crowd , thanks for sponsoring the show. Although, we not satisfied with the equipment that was provided, such as; microphones and also the sound,too much bass was drowning out the rest of the beat.We had asked the sound provider to turn the bass down twice and no effort was made.But we are still interested in using your services in the future. Thank You for the opportunity!” - Skylone

*NOTE: Since Skylone had sound problems with their set—BigTime contacted the venue to make sure management discussed this with their sound person. BigTime also will book Skylone for another venue in town as well. (Instead of giving them more pay-to-play shows, how about giving their money back?)

“We had a great time, hope to play again soon. I did get hit in the face by a battery thrown from the crowd but i hold none of you guys / or “The Sets” accountable. I just do what i love to do.. perform original hip hop, @ my own risk! God bless I WOULD LOVE MORE SHOWS!”

Everything went a lot better this time. Jason did a great job and was actually there before any of the bands. That’s what you call punctual. We love the Brickhouse and with the liquor it was a lot easier to get people to show up. Thanks!

Hello, We had previously discussed my show last September at The Brickhouse that did not go well and I wanted to follow up with you about last Sunday. I just wanted to tell you that things went well and I was pleased. The show went smoothly for me an my part and Mike was good to work with. He did give me the extra $1.00 per ticket that you and I had agreed upon and I appreciate that. I appreciate you restoring my faith in Big Time Entertainment and I would be happy to play a show with your agency again. Please let me know about any upcoming dates. Thank you.”

“Whitney, I thank you for all the time that you have put into us in handling our frustrations. Whitney you obviously are one of the better people at Big Time, if you need a reliable Sacramento contact I might be interested in helping out.”

“One of the bands that played with us (The one man band if that helps) Would have done better but the guy was out of town. he was talented though. But yeah, thank you for the show on the 18th and email us those tickets when you can please, so we can start selling! We are stoked.”

“Hey thank you very much, we did have a lot of fun, we wished other bands had brought more fans though so we could increase our fanbase, but not much you can do. The 18th of november sounds great, where would it be this time?”

“Thanks for checking with us - the show was great, we had a good time. the sound guy seemed to be having a bad day, but that is the nature of the sound guy. we’d definitely love to come back.”

Hey whitney, Our band has had a lot of miscomunication lately. our drummer has pretty much had his mindset on playing this show, while not meeting with us on this to come to a complete desicion. we have our eyes this month fully set to start recording our demo. All of our efforts and trys will be focused and set fully to this. we are extremely sorry, and hope that this does not cost you any problems. And if it does tell us anything we can do to make it up to you. We regretfully are pulling out of this slot, to focus our efforts on our demo, and then release it in the following month at an amazing show. Once again we are all extremely sorry for any problems we may have caused. please keep us posted on upcoming shows. We are extremely grateful for your help and support. Hope All Is Well.”

TICKETS/TICKETS/TICKETS: If there's one thing Big Time promotes, it's selling those damn tickets...
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Hello Mike here we will do the dec 28th show even though its a thursday oh well get us tickets going the sooner the better! a friday in jan sounds awesome!!! where are these shows going to be Hells Kitchen, El corazon? all ages mo info please! We had a great time at Hells Kitchen Nov 26th everyone seemed to enjoy it that came on a SUNDAY.”

Hey-Yeah we got the tickets for Friday January 12, and we will start to sell those. We also did read the ticket email. Thanks so much for everything!-

Amy, you and all the others over there at bigtime kick ass. We got the sweet tickets and plan on filling every damn square foot of the venue. We also read the entire email and pdf file and we can’t wait to play. See you on the 25th! Thanks again! Rock the Shit.”

Yes, we got the tickets. Thanks! We’re pretty excited about playing again!

Ya we got the tickets and read the entire ticket email. We are really stoked for another show and thanks again!

Thank you how many tickets do with get to start. We have fliers and single CD’s ready like you said so we are ready to sell over 50 tickets!! We thank you and we like to continue doing shows with BIG TIME ENT

“Hey Paige, I have read over the email and the tickets look AWESOME!! I would love to try to sell the tickets and play the 31st!! So I guess it is your call. Just let me know. Thank you.”

do you guys got any tickets that you can email me that have all the bands name on them for the april 12 show so the fans know who they are seeing?thank you for your time its great working with you!”

LOST AND FOUND: The last glowing endorsement. We'd better get with Hell's Kitchen to find out if that jacket was ever recovered...
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Hey, we had a good time at the show and thanks for letting us play there. One of our members left his jacket there at hells kitchen and we were wundering how we would go about getting it back with out haveing to go all the way there. umm.....just let us know if you still have it and how we can get it back.”
- Dean S.


SO LET'S REVIEW THE FACTS...

1. Afton Live / Afton Shows rents/reserves clubs in your town for a series of nights (always on "rock crap" weeknights when more established bands won't do shows).

2. They con several unsuspecting new bands into thinking they represent the club or live in the town they book.

3. They make these bands think Afton Live / Afton Shows is some huge management corporation with lots of contacts, when in reality it's a few jokers trying to take advantage of all musicians.

4. They set really high unrealistic door prices.

5. They trick bands into selling quotas of their expensive tickets to family and friends (or end up having to buy the remainder).

6. They pit bands against each other by making the top seller of bogus tickets the headliner. The best band will not headline. The best salesmen will headline.

7. Afton Live collects the money and you get less than they do.

8. Afton Live does nothing for you but reserve the club. This you could do yourselves. They don't even send you the tickets. They send you an email template and you've got to take the thing to Kinko's and print the tickets yourselves!

9. Afton Live shows always get worse. The more Afton shows you do, the smaller the attendance. All bands agree on this one. People finally get sick of buying overpriced tickets to your shows.

10. Doing Afton shows isn't going to get you an "in" with the club.

11. Afton Live is not some charitable group of fellow musicians who are out to help beginners get a start. Afton is a RACKET. THEY ARE ONLY IN BUSINESS TO MAKE MONEY FROM YOU.

CONSIDER THIS:If 4 bands could really sell 35 tickets @ $7, they would have $980. With that money you could put the show on yourselves.

PLEASE PASS THIS ON TO ALL THE BANDS YOU KNOW. DON'T PARTICIPATE IN THIS SCAM!


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